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Jace Lacob (Jace): Have you seen the Sherlock Season 4 premiere yet? If you answered, “Yes” we feel your pain. If you answered, “No,” don’t listen on until after you’ve watched.
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Jace: I’m Jace Lacob and you’re listening to MASTERPIECE Studio.
Mary Watson surprised us for the first time in Sherlock Season 3.
Turns out, the witty, sweet-tempered lady we thought we knew had a bloody past. And, in a desperate attempt to keep her secrets, well...secret, Mary shot Sherlock, nearly killing him and breaking up her and John’s marriage in the process.
CLIP:
John: Perfect. So that’s what you were, an assassin? How could I not see that?
Mary: You did see that.
Jace: Now, Mary has surprised us for the second time.
At the end of the Season 4 premiere, the ex-assassin turned wife and mother took a bullet intended for Sherlock Holmes.
CLIP:
Mary: Look after Rosie. Promise me.
John: I promise. Yes, I promise.
Jace: But in a show where supposedly dead characters have come back to life on more than one occasion, is it possible that Mary will follow in their footsteps?
CLIP:
Amanda: No, no, she's definitely dead.
Jace: Today, actor Amanda Abbington looks back on the past three years she has spent playing Mary Watson, and looks ahead to a Mary-less future.
This week we are joined by Sherlock star Amanda Abbington. Welcome.
Amanda Abbington (Amanda): Hello, how are you? (Laughs)
Jace: Good. How are you?
Amanda: I'm very well, thank you. Very much alive, so that's good.
Jace: Yes! So, my first question isn't actually a question, but a comment, and it's more, "No!"
Amanda: (Laughs) I think that's what the general feeling was. When we went to the screenings of them, that was the general feeling with the press and everything. They were floored by the fact that quite a main character just got quite so easily bumped off, but she was always going to die, because it's Mary Morstan, and she dies in the book. So, she had to pop her clogs, so they did it in a very dramatic way, which was brilliant.
Jace: So, how and when did you learn that Mary Watson was going to be killed off in “The Sixth Thatchers?”
Amanda: I knew when I had a meeting with Steven and Mark about eight months before or something like that. And they said to me, "She dies in the first episode quite tragically."
Actually, what they did say was that... Because at that time they said they don't know whether to do it in a very dramatic way or to have her just walk in front of a bus, and just be really arbitrary.
Jace: (Laughs)
Amanda: But they thought the drama made more sense, because it's quite a high voltage show, so walking in front of bus probably would have been a bit of an anti-climax.
Jace: Yeah, so when you passed down and read Mark Gatiss's script for that episode, I mean, what was your initial, sort of, visceral reaction to that scene?
Amanda: I was just thrilled that I would get to play that scene, because it's such an amazing build up. Reading it… Yeah. I think I got very upset, I think I cried, because it's such a... It's beautifully written, as well, when she says, "Look after Rosie for me." And as a mother myself, that was very easy to turn on the tears at that point, because she's losing her baby and the love of her life. So, yeah.
It was a good scene to shoot, that. We spent two days doing it in Cardiff and it was fantastic.
Jace: And Mary finally reveals her true identity, Rosamund Mary, the same name as her daughter's, to John, and says...
CLIP:
Mary: Being Mary Watson was the only life worth living.
Jace: What was it like shooting that death scene in Cardiff, as you just mentioned?
Amanda: It was very moving. I think, when this is out, it'll already be out. Martin and I split up back in March, so doing that was very emotional, because we were going through the beginnings of our breakup, so it added more emotion to it. But actually, we're best mates, so it was very... It's easy to work with Martin. You know, he's one of my favorite actors and I love him dearly, so doing that stuff with him is always a joy, and very exciting, yeah. But devastating, you know, cause it's a tough old scene to shoot saying all that, because it's deep and meaningful stuff, I think.
CLIP:
Mary: John, I think this is it.
John: No, no, no. It’s not. It’s… Jeez.
Mary: You made me so happy. You gave me everything I could ever, ever want.
John: Mary, Mary. Shh...
Jace: What is the life and death, I think, of that moment of her looking back on the life she finally was able to achieve, a cobbled together, fake life, as it might be, but it was perhaps the best version of Mary?
Amanda: Oh, I think it was definitely the best version of Mary. I think, she’d finally found peace, and she'd finally found solace, and the fact that it was taken away from her very cruelly, and sort of... Yeah, I think it's heartbreaking, but I don't think it's lost on her that that was her happiest time, I think. You know, and I think, also, if I was- because I kind of have my own private backstory of Mary, and in my head, she didn't have a particularly happy upbringing, which is why she turned to what she did, and decided to do what she did. So, that adds weight to the fact that this life she had with John and Sherlock was more meaningful, and had more substance than anything she'd done in her past.
Jace: I mean, given the fact that Sherlock faked his own death, Moriarty may have done the same, though I think that would be impossible...
Amanda: Yeah.
Jace: What do you make of theories that Mary has attempted something similar?
Amanda: (Laughs)
Jace: She went in there with squibs loaded under her blouse.
Amanda: No, no, she's definitely dead. She's definitely dead (laughs).
Jace: (Laughs)
Amanda: Mary's dead. Yeah, she has to. That's the other thing, you know. As I said, you know, Mary has a finite life. She has to die. She dies in the books and it would seem silly to carry on her character in the show, because you want to stay true to the canon of Conan Doyle.
And she had a brilliant time in the show, you know. She came, and she caused mayhem and shot Sherlock, and then redeemed herself at the end. And I think it's a brilliant story arc for her. And she's a really strong character, I think. And I think it's very brave that she has been killed off the way she has. I love it, I love it.
Jace: Putting aside any theatrics, Mary could always return in a flashback. Does “The Sixth Thatchers” mark your final episode on Sherlock?
Amanda: Ah, that's the thing. I remember Andrew Scott saying to me- I saw Andrew Scott a couple weeks ago, we were talking about Sherlock and he said, “The thing you have to remember about being on Sherlock, Amanda, is that you never leave, because the way Mark and Steven write is that they'll always do flashbacks and things will always be picked up from years ago.” So, he said, “That's the beauty of being in Sherlock, is that you'll always be invited back at some point.” And it's true, you know. It's such a fantastic show for that; they can pick up any story thread and just, like, go back to wherever. You know, we went to the Victorian period, and things like that. So, that's the beauty of being in Sherlock is that you don't actually ever really leave. It's like the Mafia (laughs).
Jace: (Laughs) You thought you were out and they pulled you back in.
Amanda: Yeah, pulled me back in (laughs).
Jace: (Laughs) Now, Mary's quite a divisive character in the novels and among a certain subset of fans. Were you concerned ahead of time that she'd be seen as an interloper in John and Sherlock's relationship?
Amanda: Absolutely. I mean, I always said that I don't think she... For me, she was never divisive between John and Sherlock. She was never going be a divisive character between them, but I wanted her to be a divisive character for the audience, because it's far more interesting when people hate you as well as love you. I think, you know you're doing something right if an audience is divided. So, I wanted her to be divisive for the audience. I never wanted her to be divisive between John and Sherlock, because that was very, very important that they both liked her and that they got on together, and she didn't ever split them up or try and get in between them.
But, you know, I think it's great that people hate Mary. I think it's (laughs) you know, it's brilliant. It means I'm doing my job properly, because who wants a vanilla character? Nobody wants somebody who's just boring. You don’t want to watch somebody who's just pedestrian and boring. You want somebody to shake things up a bit. And if she's making people hate her, that's great. And if she's making people love her, it's equally brilliant. And I think, I wouldn't be doing my job properly if people just went, “Meh, okay. Well she's there.”
Jace: Yeah, boring is not the adjective I'd use to describe Mary Watson.
Amanda: No, thank you. No, I don't think she is at all. I think, you know, she's multi faceted, and she's flawed. And that's what I love. I think flawed characters are so much more interesting to watch.
Jace: Before our next question, a brief message from our sponsors.
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Jace: And we're back with Amanda Abbington.
Amanda: Hello (laughs).
Jace: Over the course of the third season, Mary Morstan, who becomes Mary Watson, undergoes an enormous transformation once the truth about her past is revealed. What did you make of Mary when you read the scripts initially, and did you know her secret in advance of “His Last Vow?”
Amanda: Well, I always knew that she... I didn't know she was gonna be an assassin. So, when Steven and Mark told me that I'd be playing Mary and the story arch for the third series, they said, “She's got a very dark secret, which you find out in Episode 3,” but I didn't know what it was until we got Episode 3.
But I like the fact that I didn't know that she was gonna be a highly trained assassin, because I think I would have played it slightly differently. I would have played it more knowing. And actually it was quite nice that she was this... You thought she was a very sweet-natured, young woman, as opposed to this mild maniac, psychopath.
Jace: (Laughs)
Amanda: (Laughs) So, when you're hit with it in the third episode, when she turns around and she faces Sherlock and she says, "Is John with you?" you see that shift of, “Oh, she's like a cold blooded killer. That's interesting. Okay, that's another thing that we can layer on and watch.”
Jace: And I love the call back to that moment in “The Sixth Thatchers” where she apologizes for shooting Sherlock in “His Last Vow.”
Amanda: (Laughs) Yeah.
Jace: She balances the scales almost by taking a bullet meant for him. What did you make of that moment?
Amanda: Well, that's what I thought. That's what I thought. In a split second, I think she knew that she needed to redeem herself. And I think that she didn't think about the repercussions that she would die.
Somebody asked me... Actually, it was was really interesting, somebody said the other day about, "What do you think went through her head because she has a child. And don't you think that it was really careless that she did that, because she's got a daughter?" And I remember saying, "Well, I think, you just do it, you know? If somebody looks like they're gonna get shot, what do you do? You move them out the way."
So, that's what I had in my head, that she didn't want him to die or she didn't want him to get shot again under her watch, because she was there, so she pushes him out the way and she takes the bullet.
But I don't think she did it in order for herself to get shot. I think it was just an accident. You know, she just got hit by the bullet. I don't think she planned on sacrificing her own life. I think she just wanted to move him out the way and she got caught in the crossfire.
Jace: I mean, if she did have time to think, do you think she would have perhaps changed her mind?
Amanda: I don't know. I like to think she would have done it anyway.
And I think maybe on some subconscious level, that's what she wants to do; she wants to make it right with him, because what she did in the third episode in the third series was crazy. So, I think, maybe on some subconscious level, she did want to redeem herself and be a better person, you know.
Jace: I mean, she shoots him, albeit not fatally, as a means of a diversion for an escape. It's only later that we learn that she called 999 and saved his life. What does that say about her character now that we've reached the end of her arc?
Amanda: Well, I think underneath everything, all the stuff that she has done, underneath she is a good person. I do. Personally, I think she's a good person. She's just incredibly flawed. And I think, you know, she… I still try and work out why she shot him. I still think, “Well, I wonder what did she…? Was it ‘cause she needed to get away or she needed to…?"
Jace: I mean, to me it's about survival. Everything she has done...
Amanda: Yeah.
Jace: ...has been about surviving.
Amanda: Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I think it's... What I think it is is it's just a short hand now that that's what she does. That's her way of getting out of stuff is to just do it as quickly and efficiently as possible. And she didn't want to explain, so she shoots him, gets out, dials 999, and so he gets saved. So, she knows he's gonna be okay, but she needs to get out of there, yeah. I mean that's probably my theory, I think.
Jace: True or False: The gun that Mary uses to shoot Sherlock was the same prop gun used by Daniel Craig in Skyfall?
Amanda: It's true.
Jace: True?
Amanda: (Laughs) Apparently it's true, yeah. That's what our firearms guy, Lee, told me. He said, “It’s the same one that Daniel Craig used.” And I was all over that, then. I was like, “Oh my God.” I was James Bond for the day.
Jace: Jane Bond.
Amanda: I was Jane Bond. Yeah, I was.
Jace: (Laughs)
Amanda: I felt like a 007, yeah.
Jace: I love Mary and Sherlock's rapport. They're almost birds of a feather, these two, with John in the middle of them. What do you make of Mary and Sherlock's bond?
Amanda: I think they are kindred spirits. I do. I think, they're very, very similar. I think she sees his flaws and she sees his potential, and so does he. He just, you know, he likes her. And he doesn't like many people, and he certainly doesn't like many women. So, I think, he's surprised by that and he likes the fact that they get on.
Also, but I think John, you know... All three of them, and I keep using this word because I think they are, they're all flawed. John craves danger. Craves it. Sherlock's a high functioning sociopath, and Mary's an assassin. So, they are drawn to each other, and they have this lovely union together. And that's what's so lovely about their friendship is that they get each other. And I think it's really interesting to watch that.
Jace: We're not privy to Mary and John's courtship. Did you and Martin ever discuss how they would have met and fallen in love?
Amanda: No, we didn't actually. We never did, because it was so... Because it was on the page, as it were, because the writing is so brilliant, we didn't really need to talk about a backstory. I think we probably said, “Oh, they maybe had met at the, you know... She was a receptionist or a nurse, so she worked at the GP's place where he did, and maybe that's how they got together.”
But it was never a hard and fast rule that we decided they had a backstory together. I just like the fact that you suddenly see them and they're together, and you can form your own backstory, if you like. I think the viewer can form their own backstory as to how and when they met, really.
Jace: Now, when we first meet Mary, she's a receptionist with a penchant for skip codes.
Amanda: (Laughs)
Jace: We find out she's an international assassin. And then, she becomes pregnant and becomes a mother. How does that change Mary and how do you see her arc as a whole now?
Amanda: (Laughs) I don't think it does change Mary. I don't think it does because she's... Like when they turn up with the bloodhound, she has got Rosamund with her and she gives her to John, and she's like...
CLIP:
Mary: Don’t wait up. Hey, Sherlock.
John: Mary, what are you doing here?
Sherlock: She’s better at this than you.
John: Better?
Sherlock: So I texted her.
John: Hang on, Mary’s better than me?
Sherlock: Well she is a retired super agent with a terrifying skill set; of course she’s better.
Amanda: I think she's a great mother. I don't think it comes to her easily. But I think she does love her, and she's trying to be a good mother, but I think, she craves the adventure and she craves the excitement, as they all do. So, I don't think being a mother changes her at all, to be honest. I think she still wants to do what she wants to do.
Jace: W.C. Fields famously said, "Never work with animals or children." And you do both in this episode with some baby actors playing Rosie, and an enormous Bloodhound. Which was harder?
Amanda: The Bloodhound.
Jace: (Laughs)
Amanda: The Bloodhound was so much harder, because it didn't do anything. It just didn't do anything. It just sat there. We had to get another Bloodhound the next day, because the initial Bloodhound just wouldn't walk. So, we had a scene where we're in Borough Market, we're filming in Borough Market, and the trainer said to us, “Yeah, he doesn't really like crowds, and he doesn't really like concrete, and he doesn't ..." So, he just sat on the floor. And then, one of the props guys had to get like a piece of stick, and I had to pretend that he was pulling me along, so that it would look like I was being pulled along by a dog, but actually I was being pulled along by a props guy.
Jace: (Laughs)
Amanda: And then, on the second day we got another Bloodhound, and he was useless as well. Very sweet, you know, very affectionate, but didn't do anything. So, Steven and Mark, about half 7 at night, we were wrapping about 8:15, something like that, they wrote a scene on the pavement. And that's the scene outside the telephone box where we say, "He's not moving."
CLIP:
John: He’s not moving.
Sherlock: He’s thinking.
John: He’s really not moving.
Sherlock: Slow but sure, John, not dissimilar to yourself.
Amanda: That was because the Bloodhound wouldn't do what we wanted to do, so that scene was a scene written in about 10 minutes by Steven and Mark, because we didn't know what else to do, because the Bloodhound was utterly useless, both of them.
Jace: (Laughs)
Amanda: But the babies were great. The babies were fine.
Jace: Do you have a favorite scene from the series to date?
Amanda: Out of all of them?
Jace: All of them. All of your scenes.
Amanda: All of my scenes? I like the final scene in “The Six Thatchers.” I like my death scene, that’s good. And I like the scene… I think it's “The Last Vow.” Is it “Last Vow?” Can't remember now. Well anyway, where I'm on the bed, and John's shaving, and he says, "I don't shave for Sherlock Holmes." And I said, "You should put that on a t-shirt." That was one of my favorite scenes to film.
Jace: (Laughs)
Amanda: And I did actually... I'll tell you what I loved filming, because it's so unbelievably camp and ridiculous, was the scene in “The Six Thatchers” when I'm on the plane as the American woman dressed up.
CLIP:
Stewardess: Everything okay, madam?
Mary: No, no it’s not, but what’s the use in complaining. I hear a squeaking. Probably the wing will come off is all.
Amanda: (Laughs) That was just like totally ridiculous. And I'll tell you why that's in, because Mark Gatiss- because I do loads of accents and voices and things. I do silly voices all the time with him. We always do ridiculous voices whenever we see each other. And he said, "I'm gonna write you some in." And he'd written a German accented one as well, but we didn't have time to do it. So, he just wanted... He basically did that just because he wanted me to do an American accent, just a silly American accent. So, that's why that's there. No other reason, than just Mark wanted me to an accent.
Jace: But you know now we're gonna have to ask you to do the accent.
Amanda: (Laughs) No, because, look. America's listening, and I don't… I really like Americans and I want them to like me (laughs).
Jace: But it's so funny, and it's so over the top. It's great.
Amanda: [American accent] It really, really, is. Okay, so, listen. Here we go (laughs).
Jace: (Laughs)
Amanda: I'm so sorry. I can do a better one than that, I promise. I'm really sorry. I apologize to America.
Jace: That was amazing.
Amanda: Please don't hate me (laughs).
Jace: That was amazing.
Amanda: (Sighs)
Jace: So, I want to play a quick game.
Amanda: Go on then. Oh, I'm not very good at games (laughs).
Jace: It's gonna be about the next episode, “The Lying Detective.”
Amanda: Okay.
Jace: If “The Lying Detective” were an adjective, what would it be?
Amanda: Uh, it would be... “If ‘The Lying Detective’ was an adjective...?” It would be dangerous.
Jace: Dangerous. If it were a body part, what would it be?
Amanda: Teeth.
Jace: Teeth. If it were a cast member from a Real Housewives franchise, who would it be?
Amanda: Bethenny Frankel.
Jace: (Laughs) You were way, way, way too quick with that.
Amanda: (Laughs) I know. I love her, she's brilliant.
Jace: (Laughs) And apparently you do watch a lot of Real Housewives, is that true?
Amanda: I do, I love it. I love Real Housewives of New York and L.A. Is it? The Hollywood one. Beverly Hills, Beverly Hills.
Jace: Beverly Hills, yes.
Amanda: Love those two. It’s incredible.
Jace: As a child, you wanted to be a professional dancer before an injury sidelined you at 16. How has dancing influenced your career?
Amanda: Oh, it's influenced me a lot, yeah. I think dancing does. It's a definitely different type of discipline-- that's lots of D's. But it is, it’s… I have a very good work ethic, I think; I knuckle down, and I think it's because I used to dance a lot when I was a kid and when I was in my early teens, and late teens, and twenties.
So… Yeah. And also, it gives you a good posture, and it gives you a good feeling for just being aware of your body and being aware of how you use it on screen and in the theatre. You know, you become more aware of how to adapt your body to certain characters. So, it's very good for keeping up your mental agility and your physical agility.
Jace: Well, it’s interesting, I think, once we learn the truth about Mary, her physicality changes considerably.
Amanda: Yeah.
Jace: And it’s much more sort of... I don't know, intimidating, than Mary Watson.
Amanda: Yeah.
Jace: And just... I thought it was an amazing transformation. I do think it is...
Amanda: Oh did you? Thank you. It was, sort of, premeditated. I did want to do that. I wanted her to be more snake-like, if you like. Just more sinewy and more on the front foot when everybody knew who she was, as opposed to this fairly fluffy, sweet, and mild-mannered girl, which she was before. So, I'm glad that came across, because I wasn't sure if it did. That was just for me, but if you noticed it, then that's brilliant (laughs).
Jace: I did notice. I noticed it.
Amanda: Oh, that's fantastic. Thank you, I'm so pleased. My work here is done. That’s great (laughs).
Jace: (Laughs)
Jace: “The Abominable Bride” took home an Emmy award in September for Best Television Movie, which was a high point for the evening as, while you were on stage, your purse was stolen.
Amanda: (Laughs) I know! I know!
Jace: Did you ever recover it?
Amanda: No, I didn't. I didn't. I never found it. It literally vanished. It went, and I have no idea where it went. It was crazy. Put it under my seat, told it would be fine, “Fine. You can leave it there,” came back, gone. It's all gone.
Jace: Moriarty.
Amanda: Yeah, that's what it was.
Luckily, see, we had to have a piece of identification to take with us to go an HBO party afterwards, and I'd put my passport in, and then I thought, “I won't take that, because if anything happens I want to go home.” So, I took my passport out and put my driver's license in, but if I had left my passport in, it would have been a whole different story.
Jace: You would have still been here in L.A. We would have been doing this in person, then.
Amanda: I would, yes, absolutely. I would still be there, and I'd have bought a house, and I'd be living there now.
Jace: (Laughs) So, let's get Sherlock Holmes on the case, then. Find...
Amanda: Yeah, let's do it.
Jace: ...find this purse.
Amanda: If anyone can, he can. Let's face it.
Jace: What will you take away from your experience on the show?
Amanda: Oh, it's one of the best jobs I've ever done, because I got to work with my partner, as well, which was brilliant. And he's still my best mate, and we still get on. And so that's... It's really nice. And I got to hang out with Ben and Andrew. And I've made friends on it that I will have for life, you know, like Una, and Loo Brealey, and Laura.
It's a really lovely place to be and go to work. There's worse places to go to work, and it has been roller coaster from start to finish. It's one of my favorite jobs ever.
Jace: The Sherlock roller coaster continues next week with “The Lying Detective” airing Sunday Jan. 8th, at 9 pm ET on MASTERPIECE, and streaming online.
Fonte: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/podcas...n-the-premiere/
Edit
Transcript
Jace Lacob (Jace): 2 major surprises, in just 2 episodes; it’s clear that the new season of Sherlock is on a roll. Unless you want to learn what these surprises were from us, make sure you’ve seen episodes 1 and 2 before listening.
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Jace: I’m Jace Lacob and you’re listening to MASTERPIECE Studio.
In a weird, somewhat unexplainable way, John Watson and Sherlock Holmes make a great team. Even from the very beginning, John understood Sherlock in a way that no one else could.
But now that Mary’s gone and the team’s dissolved, both John and Sherlock find themselves in a very bad place.
CLIP:
Sherlock: I’m burning up. I’m at the bottom of a pit and I’m still falling and I’m never climbing out.
Jace: But in death -- just as she did in life -- Mary Watson is able to reunite the misfits. Together, John and Sherlock confront Culverton Smith and some other painful realities.
CLIP:
John: I’m not the man you thought I was. I’m not that guy. I never could be, but that’s the point. That’s the whole point.
Jace: But the episode doesn’t end there. In a scene 3 years in the making, the identity of the third Holmes sibling is revealed, punctuated by a gunshot.
CLIP:
Martin Freeman: I never did that scene where her identity is revealed without a chill running up my spine.
Jace: Since this could be the end of Dr. John Watson, we’re taking a look back at all of the big moments from the past 4 seasons of Sherlock with actor Martin Freeman.
This week we are joined by Sherlock star Martin Freeman. Welcome.
Martin Freeman (Martin): Thank you.
Jace: This is a highly emotional episode. What was it like to tap into John's grief?
Martin: Grief is a hard thing to play (laughs). Well, because it's such an extreme state of mind and state of being that if you're not feeling it's quite tricky. You have to dig a bit, and when necessary you have to just make it up.
But I don't know, I think John's always feels to me like he's on the verge of stopping himself either exploding or slapping someone or something (laughs).
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: Yeah. “Difficult,” is the answer to that, how it was to tap into his grief. It’s difficult, because it's also not a very nice place to stay, you know? It's not a very nice place to inhabit for a few days.
Jace: Now, John and Sherlock have had bumpy patches before. Why is this rift with Sherlock so different?
Martin: Oh, because I blame him for the death of my wife. And so, I think all the stuff that I felt about Sherlock anyway as John is being given voice and is being given full reign.
Because, you know, Sherlock has always pissed John off. Always. As well as loving him, he also wants to slap him quite a lot of the time, and I think this is John's way of giving vent to that.
He's allowing the loss of his wife to give him license to go, "Yeah, and it's your fault, you f***er. It was you. You said you would look after her and you didn't." And of course, like most of those things, it’s misplaced because what John's really thinking is, "I couldn't look after her. I didn't stop her from dying, but rather than dealing with that, I'm going to blame you."
Jace: John engaged in an emotional affair with the mystery woman from the bus.
CLIP:
John: ...and this girl just smiled at me. That’s all it was. It was a smile. We texted constantly. Want to know when? Every time you left the room, that’s when.
Jace: Should that change our perception of John Watson?
Martin: Um... (Sighs) It might change you perception. I mean, for me it doesn't particularly change your judgment of a person, but it's literally new information for the audience about John, because we haven't heard that about him before. I think, generally speaking, all you've seen of John is him being very decent and very loyal to Sherlock. You know, he's a decent, professional doctor, ex-soldier.
So, I don't… Yeah, I mean, it might change your perception of him literally just because you are seeing that, but I hope it won't change people's judgment of him, because, well unless you've got certainly different makeup than I have, then I think we've all engaged in a bit of emotional jiggery-pokery at some point, you know. I would imagine it's almost impossible not to, isn't it?
Jace: "Emotional jiggery-pokery" might be the name of my new band.
Martin: Yeah, emotional jiggery-pokery. I've never said that before. You can have that for your band.
Jace: I'm keeping it. It’s mine.
Martin: As long as I get credit on the sleeve notes.
Jace: Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
Now, the mystery woman's identity is revealed at the end of "The Lying Detective."
CLIP:
John: Who are you?
Sherrinford: Isn’t it obvious? Haven’t you guessed? I’m Eurus.
Jace: How does her presence shake up the relationships on the show?
Martin: Well, it's obviously... It's a massive bomb that has dropped for that family, for the Holmes family.
I can only really say what it was like from my point of view, playing it. I never did that scene where her identity is revealed without a chill running up my spine. So, however many takes we did, I always felt cold as it was revealed. I loved it, loved it.
CLIP:
Eurus: My parents loved silly names, like Eurus, or Mycroft, or Sherlock. Oh, look at him. Didn’t it ever occur to you, not even once, that Sherlock’s secret brother might just be Sherlock’s secret sister?
Martin: And of course, yeah, it changes everything for the Holmes brothers. And as a result, if something changes that deeply for Sherlock, then something has to change a little bit for John, because they're best friends.
Jace: Were all you just laughing at the notion that Tom Hiddleston was supposedly playing Sherrinford?
Martin: (Laughs) I didn't hear that, actually, until… Well, I only heard that after we stopped shooting, so no, I didn't know. I heard about Taylor Swift as well, that she was going to be something in it (laughs).
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: I guess it was a job lot. While they were together, it was two for the price of one, maybe.
Jace: (Laughs)
Jace: What was it like filming the emotional resolution between John and Sherlock in "The Lying Detective"?
Martin: It's hard, actually. It was hard, because it comes off the back of very painful stuff between John and Mary.
CLIP:
John: She was wrong about me.
Sherlock: Mary? How so.
John: She thought that if you put yourself in harm’s way, I’d rescue you, or something, but I didn’t. Not until she told me to. And that’s how this works, that’s what you’re missing.
Martin: So, it's hard sometimes just being in some states, because it's not pleasant. And sometimes, if you…
There was a really annoying thing, actually, that day that I thought... It's a big scene. It's a very big scene between Amanda, myself, and Ben, and I thought I'd got it. And then we broke for lunch and I was gutted because I thought, "Oh, no. I've got to come back to this. We didn't finish it." And I was very anxious about it after lunch, very anxious, and actually Ben was very good. He took me aside, and calmed me down. He just said, you know, "Take a deep breath," sort of thing. So, I did and sort of allowed the scene to come back.
CLIP:
John: She taught me to be the man she already thought I was. Get yourself a piece of that.
Sherlock: You are doing yourself a disservice. I have known many people in this world, but made few friends, and I can safely say…
John: I cheated on her.
Martin: But it was not an easy day. It was a fulfilling day, once we'd done it, because it's a really good scene, it's a really well-written scene, so hopefully we'll do it well. But, yeah it was... That's what it was. That's the answer to that question, there.
Jace: (Laughs) I mean, what happens after that? Is there a switch that's flipped, and you're done. How do you pull back from that sort of raw emotion? Is there an antidote?
Martin: For me, personally, then you just call "cut" and then the end of the day happens. Yeah. And then it's just tiring, then you're just tired in a nice way, you know. Hopefully it's in a nice way.
I love that feeling as an actor of being tired when you know you've done your best and that you've spent something, you know? You should feel a bit tired sometimes.
But, no I don't really... I tend not to take things home, apart from a general… You can take feelings and moods home, but I've never thought, if I'm playing a baddie or if I'm playing a murderer, I've never thought, "Yeah, I might kill my whole family now, because I'm so in the character."
Jace: (Laughs) So, no Jared-Leto-as-Joker method acting.
Martin: (Laughs)
Jace: You're not sending pigs to Benedict, or anything?
Martin: Why, what was he doing?
Jace: Oh, he sent like a dead pig to his cast members in Suicide Squad.
Martin: (Laughs) Did he?
Jace: He got so deep into the character of the Joker that...
Martin: Really?
Jace: ...He was... Yeah, he went a little mad.
Martin: No, I don't. I mean, I think, each to their own, of course, but I find that focus helps and doing what you need to do helps. You know, if that just means shutting up for an hour and not having a laugh with anybody. But, no. Once it's over, I have no ...
You know that thing that you were doing at 4 o’clock? That was fiction, that was your job. Now, you've got to put the tea on. It's, for me, reasonably straightforward. Although, of course, there can be a bleed of a feeling or a mood. If you spend all day screaming and shouting, that's going to have a different feeling at 8 o’clock that evening than if you spent all day flirting and kissing. They are different feelings, definitely, but either one of them is not real, so you know...
Jace: On the subject of feelings, is Sherlock as oblivious to people's feelings as we, the audience, perhaps believed?
Martin: It's funny because we sort of talked about that occasionally, or, you know, it purports more to Ben of what he has to play. I think, generally, it's known that he is pretty blind and deaf to people's feelings, but I think there were moments- I think there are moments where Sherlock knows more than he's letting on, you know?
I think, sometimes he uses his reputation that everyone in the room thinks he's completely blind and deaf to something, he uses that as cover, I think. I think, occasionally he's able to see more than he's given credit for. Do you know what I mean? So, it's a, "Yeah, maybe I've just hurt your feelings, but I don't really care because I've got this other case to solve." As opposed to, "I have no idea that I've hurt your feelings."
I think, sometimes he genuinely does not have an idea, and we see that, certainly, in the earlier episodes of the show, but then other times, I think, there is a little glint in the eye, almost invisible glint in the eye, where he knows, but he's just doesn't care, maybe.
Jace: Now, the series to date has been full of very malevolent baddies, but Toby Jones's Culverton Smith seems to be pure evil incarnate.
CLIP:
Culverton: You know in films when you see dead people pretending to be dead and it’s just living people lying down? That’s not what dead people look like. Dead people look like things. I like to make people into things, then you can own them.
Martin: Yeah (laughs).
Jace: What did Toby bring to the role, and what was it like playing opposite him?
Martin: Well, Toby is just a very good actor, so he brought that and he brought those chops and that craft that he has. Working with him was really good fun. I've worked with him before like 10 years ago, and you do... Yeah, we ended up laughing a lot, actually. He's very naughty, you know. He just likes a**ing about basically.
But yeah, he does… For someone who's as nice as he is, he does a very good line in spooky. Do you know what I mean? (Laughs) Like he does a good line in something just a bit off and Culverton Smith is very off, you know, very, very off.
Because Moriarty is at least charming, do you know what I mean? Moriarty's funny, and he's camp, and he's charming, whereas Culverton Smith is just like, an ooze. You know what I mean? He's a like an oozing sore, you know?
Jace: Before we get to the next question, a brief word from our sponsors.
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Jace: And we're back now with Martin Freeman.
Martin: Thank you.
Jace: What was it like filming Mary's climactic death scene opposite Amanda?
Martin: (Laughs) Oh, it was hilarious. Nothing I like more than... (Laughs)
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: ...seeing Amanda get shot in the chest.
It was hard. I mean, you know, again, it's almost impossible to go there, you know?
You think, "Oh, this is Amanda. This is the mother of my children. This is not..." I can't glibly just think, "God, wow, just imagine she has been shot in the chest," because obviously if she was shot in the chest that would be my life almost over, you know. So I can't really... I can't go there easily, obviously, and with that there is always the danger of bad acting, you know? So, my jury is still out on that (laughs).
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: I'll know when I've seen it, if I'm okay with it. But it was hard. It was hard.
CLIP:
Mary: John, I think this is it.
John: No, no, no. It’s not. It’s… Jeez.
Mary: You made me so happy. You gave me everything I could ever, ever want.
John: Mary, Mary. Shh...
Martin: I mean, I do remember the look he gives Sherlock afterwards is of a wounded animal, you know, who will kill him if he comes any closer. You know, "I don't want to be anywhere near you, now," because of course, I don't know what to do with these feelings, so I'm going to have to blame my best friend, because he's the only other person in the world who I really care about. So, he has to blame Sherlock or he'll just die, or he'll just kill himself, or something. So, it all goes on Sherlock's shoulders, and he hates Sherlock for that time being until he has to acknowledge that maybe he doesn't hate him.
CLIP:
John: You didn’t kill Mary. Mary died saving your life. It was her choice. No one made her do it. No one can ever make her do anything, but the point is you did not kill her.
Martin: Yeah, it was not easy, basically. Not easy, and I may well have done some bad acting, and I really hope I haven't, come January the first. So, apologies if I have.
Jace: You haven't.
Martin: (Laughs)
Jace: You haven't.
Martin: Yeah, I bet you say that to all the boys.
Jace: (Laughs) You've said, you botched your first audition for Sherlock. Your wallet was apparently stolen on the way to the audition. What happened?
Martin: Well, for a start, I really don't remember my wallet being stolen. I don't remember losing the wallet. I don't remember any of that. That came up later on. I don't know whether that was a lie that I said in the audition to justify my state of mind.
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: I really, really don't. I, swear to God, can't remember my wallet going. I do remember not being in the highest of spirits, and I can't really remember why. With me it could be f***ing anything, to be fair. Take your pick. Could be anything. But I remember thinking... I wasn't firing at 100%. I also remember, in that symbiotic way where you're not sure if it's you bringing it into a room or it's being reflected back to you, when I went into the room, I also thought, "Oh, maybe they're not that keen on me, either.”
But I was in Los Angeles actually, and I was staying at The Chateau, as showbiz people are wont to do, and I said to Michael, my agent, "Did anything come back about Sherlock?" And he said, "Yeah. To be honest, they didn't really feel you were that up for it." And I said, "I really am up for it," because by that time I'd read the script and I knew it was a good piece of writing. I said, "Will you please let them know that I was up for it. I don't know what happened. Sorry. If it was me, sorry. But I'm really up for it." So, they got me in again, and I read with Benedict.
It's now weird, because this story's been told so many times and by so many people, it's like, "And Brian Epstein went down into the cavern, and there were these four Liverpool lads, and the rest was history."
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: Clearly nothing is ever that emboldened when you're doing it in real life, but it was a good read. He was already the part. It was always going to be Benedict, who was playing it. When I read the script, I'd heard it was going to be Benedict Cumberbatch, and I'd seen some of his work, and I thought, "Oh, wow. He's really good. He'll be great in that."
So, he was already cast, but they were searching around for John a bit longer, I think, and when we read, as this is Mark and Stephen's words, “They could see the show,” which is lovely. Makes for a good show biz anecdote.
Jace: It does. You said, in an interview with Vulture that your reaction to both Fargo and Sherlock was initially the same, "Really? Do we need that?"
Martin: (Laughs)
Jace: But then after reading the first few pages of both projects you were sucked in.
Martin: Very true.
Jace: What was it about Sherlock, specifically, that made you change your mind?
Martin: It was just the quality of the writing. I can't remember a specific scene. There was a specific scene in Fargo that made me think, "Oh my God, I have to do this." It was the scene between mine and Billy Bob Thornton's character in a hospital. It was just so beautifully written.
In Sherlock I don't think there was a specific scene, it was just from the get-go. It was very smart. It was action, and intellect, you know. And it wasn't treating the audience like idiots. It wasn't knowingly cool.
My fear, my initial thing was, "Oh my God, are we going to be rapping or something?”
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: You know, “Twenty-first century, set now. Is it going to be just uber arch and cool?" And I hate that. But it wasn't that. It was just very, very smart writing. And within a few pages of that, I just thought, "Yeah, wow. Bang-up for that. I must go and do an audition where I pretend my wallet has been stolen and piss everyone off."
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: So, that was my next ambition.
Jace: (Laughs) John has two mustaches over the course of the series run, one in Season 3, and then in the, "The Abominable Bride."
Martin: Yeah.
Jace: How much did you hate wearing them?
Martin: I hated wearing the first one, because what I realized was… Well, from a vanity point of view, it wasn't attractive. And also, because Mark Gatiss had had a conversation with me about having a mustache at some point in Series 3, and I said, "Why?" (Laughs) And he basically just said, "Because I want you to."
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: It was that. It was not the normal rigor of, "Well, I think for the character..." you know. I think he and Stephen just wanted, at some point, there to be a nod toward the traditional way we see John Watson, which is having a mustache. So, my memory is, part of the reason that John Watson shaved it off in that first episode of Series 3 was to kind of meet me halfway, I think.
But next time... The Victorian mustache, I think, was a lot more attractive (laughs) even though it was more ridiculous.
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: You just think, "If you're going to have a massive mustache, have it in that way, and have a bit more red in it." Because if it had been gray, I would've looked about 70.
Jace: (Laughs) Have you forsworn mustaches moving forward?
Martin: I have not. No, I haven't. I mean, I think there are roles that I could wear mustaches for, but I think I'd like to grow them. I think, where possible now, I will just have my own. That's the thing.
Jace: One of my favorite "Sherlock" sequences is the gag in "The Empty Hearse" when Sherlock returns from the dead and John can't help but sock him repeatedly in the face.
CLIP:
Sherlock: London is in danger, John. There’s an imminent terrorist attack and I need your help.
John: My help?
Sherlock: You have missed this, admit it. The thrill of the chase, the blood pumping through your veins, just the two of us against the rest of the world…
[John punches Sherlock]
Martin: (Laughs) Yeah.
Jace: What was it like getting to punch Benedict Cumberbatch over and over again?
Martin: (Laughs) Well, of course, I didn't really... you know. “Getting to nearly punch Benedict?”
Jace: Stage punch.
Martin: Stage punch. It was good. I mean, we had done a bit of that before. We'd done that in, "A Scandal in Bohemia," as well, "A Scandal in Belgravia," rather, where Sherlock says, "Hit me," and I hit him, and we have a little tussle.
I think the feeling was that in the original story, "The Empty House," by Conan Doyle, Sherlock reveals himself to be alive and Watson faints, which is a kind of 19th century gentleman's reaction, I guess. An English gentleman, "I'm so overwhelmed. Pass me the smelling salts, I'm going to faint." I made it clear from the get-go, and I'm sure Mark and Stephen agreed, that was not going to cut it. (Laughs) You know what I mean?
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: Because that's not who our John is. Our John is not that. He's a bit more of a bloke, you know?
Jace: Yes. In "His Last Vow" John throws the "A.G.R.A." flash drive into the fire at Christmas telling Mary...
CLIP:
John: The problems of your past are your business. The problems of your future are my privilege.
Jace: Looking back, do you think he might regret that decision now, the choice to not know?
Martin: No, I think if you asked him, I think he would... For all his bloke-y-ness, he's also quite a romantic, John. And I think he believes in love, or that might just be me, I don't know where we overlap. But I think, no, I think he thinks love is worth sacrifice, and I think he thinks love is worth, "Okay, if it didn't go swimmingly, at least I did it for love." So, no. I don't think he would regret that, no. No, I don't think so. Even though it has disastrous consequences.
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: No, I'm going to say, “No.” I'm going to speak for him, and I think he'll stand by that decision to throw it in the fire.
Jace: There's a great moment in "His Last Vow" where John pretends to be Sherlock in the empty house and then removes his disguise after Mary confesses, and it's this huge emotional moment, and then John fixes his hair.
Martin: Oh, yeah (laughs).
Jace: Was that last bit scripted?
Martin: No, it wasn't scripted. I don't know, I've heard Mark say "That is pure Martin. That's pure Martin." Because I couldn't stand to have bad hair onscreen.
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: I don't know, see, because rather like (laughs), rather like Mr. Leto, I am so deep in character, I don't know where I begin and John ends.
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: So, it could've been John, it could've been me. I'm not sure. It was a bit of both. I mean genuinely, yes it might have been me, because I am funny about hair. Yeah, I am. But also, John's a military man, and that's where part of the casting has been quite good, because I'm quite meticulous in my appearance, and so is John. You know, I think that's John's military training, as well. You know, he's got to pass military muster and he's not shabby, he's not messy.
And I think also that patting down of the hair is a psychological statement, as well. It's a kind of, "And now I'm back to me.”
So, no, I don't know whether that was Martin... I mean it was kind of funny. For people who know me and people how know that (laughs) people how know my meticulous ways, they could go, "Oh, that's Martin," but also in fairness to some of my acting ability, I do also want to serve John well, and I don't think John would walk around with messy hair either.
Jace: Looking back to the beginning of Sherlock, I love the scene in "A Study in Pink,” when John is summoned to that creepy warehouse by a mysterious man who’s revealed to be Mycroft.
CLIP:
Mycroft: I’m the closest thing to a friend that Sherlock Holmes is capable of having.
John: And what’s that?
Mycroft: An enemy.
John: An enemy?
Mycroft: If you were to ask him he’d probably say his arch-enemy. He does love to be dramatic.
John: Well, thank God you’re above all of that.
Jace: What was it like shooting that scene opposite Mark Gatiss?
Martin: It was f***ing great. It was really, really good. Because it had... Aesthetically, the shots were very mid-sixties, British, spy movie. It's very Harry Palmer.
And Mark is a delightful person. He makes everything easy, he makes everything pleasurable. And also that was directed by Paul McGuigan, who, as any Sherlockian knows, cast a long shadow on this show, you know. And he gave me a really good note. This is great economic directing.
During that scene, as Mycroft is trying to do me down and trying to undermine me, my John's reaction was to bluff it out, and smile, and laugh, and like, "Yeah," like in a kind of "f**k you" way. "You're not getting to me." And he just came over and said, "I think you should try… Don't smile.” And it was a really good, very informative and instructive piece of directing, because I think what's in there is the straight version of me not smiling, you know.
CLIP:
Mycroft: When one is avoiding of the attention of Sherlock Holmes, one learns to be discreet, hence this place. Your leg must be hurting you. Sit down.
John: I don’t want to sit down.
Mycroft: You don’t seem very afraid.
John: You don’t seem very frightening.
Mycroft: (Laughs) Yes. The bravery of the soldier.
Martin: Any scenes between John and Mycroft, I really like because you know it's going to get done. Do you know what I mean? Like this is going to be...
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: "Yeah, we'll get done by lunch." But not only done by lunch, because any fool can do that, but like actually get it done well by lunch. I love it. Yeah.
Jace: Do you have a favorite scene from the series so far?
Martin: Of all the episodes?
Jace: Of all the episodes. Your personal favorite scene that you've done?
Martin: Wow, that's… I do not actually. No, I don’t. I mean, there are a lot to choose from. No, I don't, actually.
I'm very lucky- well, we're all very lucky in this show. We are given really good stuff to do, and to say, and to play, so that within that 90 minutes, I get to play pretty much everything. I mean, pretty much everything. I get to kick a bit of a**; I get to, you know, get very upset; I get to say funny stuff; I get to laugh; I get to chase people; I get to flirt and fall in love. It's very, very layered that character.
So, no, I couldn't actually think of one. What's your favorite thing about all my great work?
Jace: I love everything.
Martin: Yeah, it's hard, isn't it? It's hard picking just one moment of my great work.
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: That's the tough one. How do you single out my great work into one, distilled scene? You can't, the end.
Jace: The end. This interview's running before the final episode of Season 4. Mark... (Laughs) They love to tease an episode with a single word.
Martin: (Laughs)
Jace: We know the clue for that episode is "Sherrinford," but if the final episode were an adjective what would it be? If it were an adjective?
Martin: (sighs) Hoo.
Jace: Or I'll do you one better. If it were a beverage, what would it be?
Martin: (Laughs) A beverage. That's more... Yeah, he's suddenly got my... Yeah, he thought, "No, this guy's not that clever. Let's make it alcohol."
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: (Laughs) If it was a beverage, I think it would be like a strong strong, strong espresso, maybe. It's like a shot. It's like a shot in the arm where you have to face reality. It’s a [snaps] sobering up bit of caffeine that hits you, and you feel it in your system for a good few hours afterwards.
Jace: If it were an animal, what would it be?
Martin: Um... (Laughs) A Tyrannosaurus Rex.
Jace: (Laughs)
Martin: No. I don't know. It would be, uh... a panther. And I'm not shamelessly plugging: "‘Black Panther’ my latest film, folks. Hi. In a cinema near you in a year’s time.” No, but like something sleek and smart, but deadly. You know? Deadly.
Jace: Deadly. What will you take away from your experience on the show?
Martin: I mean, too much really to put into words in less than an hour. I mean, it has been such a massive a part of the last -- well, including the pilot -- the last seven years of my life. We did the pilot in 2009. It has opened doors for me. I've made friends on it. It has been often imitated, I would argue never equaled. But I think it's a really good show that if I wasn't in, I'd be annoyed that I wasn't in it, and I'd want to be in it.
Jace: That's the best descriptor. Martin Freeman, thank you so much.
Martin: Thanks, Jace. Thank you.
Jace: The third and final episode of Sherlock Season 4 is wickedly good, but don’t just take our word for it.
CLIP:
Martin Freeman: Number three, I think, unless we've messed it up, could be maybe the best one? I don't know.
Jace: Tune into the Sherlock season finale at a new time, 7:00 pm ET, Sunday, January 15th on MASTERPIECE, or watch it online.
Then, stick around after the Sherlock finale to catch the premiere of MASTERPIECE’s brand new show, Victoria, on at 9 pm ET.
Let Victoria whisk you away to 19th century England, and to a past where an 18-year-old girl wakes up one morning to discover that she’s Queen.
CLIP:
Jenna Coleman: She may have been 4"11 but she had “veins of iron,” it has been described as.
Jace: Jenna Coleman, the actor who plays Victoria, joins us next time on the MASTERPIECE Studio podcast to dive into the lavish premiere.
Fonte: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/podcas...d-relationship/
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